Toulon vs. Bordeaux – My admiration for rugby

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Rugby – A thugs game played by gentlemen vs. Football a gentlemen’s game played by thugs

I drove 40 minutes down the scenic highway yesterday toward Toulon. I was kindly provided with tickets for the Toulon vs. Bordeaux rugby game. I have huge admiration for rugby players. I remember watching Jonny Wilkinson kicking at the indoor facility in Newcastle, time after time, right in between the uprights. Practicing. A true legend of modern sport.

I am a big rugby fan. It has been more rugby league that I have watched in the past, and it is much quicker and easier to get your head around. Last night was the first rugby union game I have experienced in France and what a spectacle it was. The experience was unforgettable, witnessing top athletes like Sheridan, Michelak, Giteau, Botha, then there was my favourite on the night Patrick Gunther, he is a proper number 6. Somewhere I would love to play. There or 12 anyway…

This got me thinking, rugby is seen as a true gentlemen’s sport. The perception is you compete, hurt each other, and then scurry across to the bar to share a drink. In football, the perception is that you are often ushered in whilst still hurling abuse at your opponents, you may even follow that up in true sore loser fashion, with a complaint about the referee, the fact you had the more possession, the ball did not bounce for you on the day etc etc. My thoughts are simply that these are very different sports, played by differently socialised people, I use the term socialised as in school, parental upbringing, economic circumstance and so.

Yes, there is much more money in football, we live in a society dictated by supply and demand. This is why Sky pays so much money for football compared to what they pay for rugby, which of course filters in, with anomalous owners adding further to these purse strings.

Football is more widely played, it is fundamentally an easier game to play, and I am from a working class estate. As a kid I could throw a set of jumpers down, grab a ball and anyone could join in, there could be as many people on each side as were playing out, there could be throw ins, free kicks, corners the lot.

Now, I did not play rugby union as a kid. Mainly down to the fact I went to a football playing school. It is a fiercely technical sport. Look at the lineouts and scrums. The fact that the tight head prop is often the highest paid player, shows how technical the position is. Good luck officiating a game of rugby on a council estate with these highly technical set pieces. Therefore you have a different demographic growing up playing rugby than you do football.

There are always anomalies but look at Liverpool my hometown, the comprehensive schools play football and the grammar schools play rugby. Simple. Straight away you have a class system that is glaringly obvious. In rugby you are taught to respect the referee, to call him ‘Sir’, deducted 10 yards instantly if you disrespect him. In football, you see players talking back to the ref, crowding him out and even managers scorning him after the game. Football needs to learn from rugby here. What do you think?

I am not saying rugby is all innocent and pure. Bloodgate says otherwise. Where gamesmanship, well plain and simple cheating occurred in order for one team to gain an advantage. It does seem to occur much less in rugby than football, that’s for sure. I didn’t witness a Bordeaux player last night dive and over exaggerate a collision!

This of course occurs in football, particularly with the continental influence on the game, people go down more easily nowadays to earn an unfair advantage. Fact.

In football, fan culture is different. It is a religion. The atmosphere at Toulon was awesome, but it was a different type of atmosphere to a football game. There were Mexican waves, there were balloons thrown down, newspaper littered into the air each time a try was scored, a feel good atmosphere. The Toulon fans even applauded the opposing fly half when he completed one of his many difficult conversions.

Football is more life and/or death! A decision does not go your way, the referee is scorned, the player makes a mistake in football and can be booed, sometimes by their own fans. This would not happen in rugby. I would have loved to have played rugby, I love the idea of leaving it all on the pitch, testing each other as hard as physically possible, engaging in battle for 80 minutes before sharing a beer (well in my case a coffee) in the dressing room, comparing war wounds and reflecting amicably, and respectfully with your opponent on the battle you have just shared. Do you agree?

Football is undoubtedly more open, less stop-start. There were times when players in the team were standing about on the wing for 5 minutes at a time while set piece after set piece occurred. Remember, we are talking rugby union here, even the rucks and mauls can slow the game down with the tactics behind these to test the opposition in a different area of their defense.

Unfortunately I think my love for rugby has come too late for me to play, but I will be back as a fan, maybe with my son next time, although I am unsure what my other half will think of me honing my son for rugby union.

The people of Toulon were so accommodating and friendly. The language barrier can be an issue but that will become easier when my French improves. It is a picturesque place with a beautiful harbor; it has a warm, friendly feel and great weather, which always helps. Cannot say I blame Jonny Wilkinson for making the trip across. It was unfortunate that I only got to witness Jonny for 20 minutes due to an injury he sustained, I wish him a speedy recovery and to Toulon, another successful season.

 

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myworldofsport 5 pts

I am not sure it is as simple as a class debate or one of less popular sports having better morals.  As the Olympics and less popular sports have shown over the summer - a sport cannot always be generalised easily.  In cycling you get gentlemanly acts but huge problems with drug cheats, or Paralympic heroes but others who are finding ways to cheat.

 

It is also important to set aside the class of a sports person from who they are in their normal life.  Some guys play hard all the time but are still decent, respectful human beings.  Some are the opposite.  Many remember Derek Redmond bravely crossing the line in the Olympic 400m but that didn't stop him repeatedly cheating on his wife.

 

I think one of the key differences in the behaviour of some of the players is the damage that can be done.  In football you can badly injure someone but it is most likely to be their leg through a tackle in the normal course of events.  In rugby there are dangerous areas such as scrums, line-outs, jumping for high balls etc where the danger is more likely to be to the neck and head.

 

For this reason rugby players are usually very considerate in key areas and whilst they may happily punch one another on the training pitch and growl in the scrums, anything likely to put an opponent in serious physical danger is dealt with quickly and with very strong punishments.

 

I love both sports and appreciate their differences but feel that generalising is never too healthy and whilst football is always considered to be 'in crisis' for one reason or another it is funny how ratings are always increasing and money is being poured in to the game.  It smacks of jealousy to me.

jonwasp 6 pts

Mr Barton, it's fair to say that I have not always been a huge fan of yours, however, you do regularly surprise me with intellegent and articulate insights on subjects both inside and outside of sport - this is one such example.

 

As an ex-professional rugby union player and big football fan, I'm in a pretty good position to comment on this subject. For the reasons you have described, the impression I get amongst the general public is that there has been a slight backlash against football and footballers in the last few years, where one of the catalysts was England's poor showing at the 2010 World Cup - overpaid, underperforming and a gaping lacking passion. Yes, the Premier league stadia will always be full, as for these people it IS a matter of life and/or death, as you correctly say. But, for the 'floating voters', football has lost its way somewhat - something that has only be amplified by the sheer sporting purity of London 2012. To remind everyone, football has recently suffered from rascism, match fixing, philandering stars and rape convictions, whilst the stars continue to be paid millions of pounds and often appear to not be interested when representing their country. I agree, rugby is not perfect and neither are the players, but something like 'Bloodgate' pales in to insignificance.

 

I think the growing indifference of many minor football supporters in this country towards the sport was really demonstarted during Euro 2012. I have never experienced a major international football tournament, where there was so little fanfare and excitement surrounding it from the English public.

 

For someone that has not played rugby, your insights are spot-on. One of the reasons for the mutual respect between competing teams, is that every player is aware that every one of the 30 players on the pitch is completely committing both mentally and physically - leaving nothing on the pitch, as you say. Rugby is brutal and it is genuinely dangerous. When your team mates put their body on the line for you to the point of exhaustion, there is an intangible bond formed that continues for many, many years after you finish playing. This is the cornerstone of what people describe as the 'rugby brotherhood'. I don't know any other sport where this exists, quite as it does within rugby.

 

Regarding the class divide of rugby and football, which does exists, contrary to what some commenters below say, you may be interested to know that I am on the board of trustees of a rugby charity, called 'School of Hard Knocks'. Sky Sports have run 5 series following the work of the amazing Ken Cowen and the SoHK, and it was established as a charity earlier this year. The SoHK programme really is bridging the class divide of rugby. It focusses on using rugby as a tool to assist young men in getting back in to full time employment, and in some cases simply getting their life back on track. Participants include those with criminal records, unemployed, gang-members and those with behavioural and integration issues. We work inconjunction with Jobcentre and provide interview training, and, at the end of the 12 week course, there is an employment fair where the lads are given exposure to potential employers. The participants are put through a gruelling training programme, where they learn the virtues of discpline, team-work, anger management, and respect for each other, and most importantly themselves. There are some that do not finish the course, but for those that do, there have been some huge success stories.

 

SoHK really does put in to practical use, all the benefits of the game of rugby that you have mentioned. It welcomes those from all walks of life into the rugby family and helps to close the class divide that exists in the sport. If you are interested in learning more about this, please let me know. I'm sure the lads would be inspired by a guest appearance at one of the courses, as they would really be able to relate to your story.

 

Jonny Barrett (barrett.jonny@gmail.com)

 

 

   

 

 

maurelien 5 pts

First time I attended a RU game was France-Italy at Stade de France 2 years ago. I was really disappointed by the atmosphere, which was too friendly for me.

France were winning but when Italy scored twice in a row everybody in the stadium applauded... It was like they wanted Italian to beat us?! 

I guess when you're used to a particular sport culture, you can't change.

 

Anyway, I hope I'll see you on the field at Parc des Princes. As you may have guess I'm not a big fan of l'OM (to say the least), but I think you're a nice chap and I enjoy reading you. I promise I won't boo you ;)

BrunoCompassi 9 pts

YES Rugby fans and players are more fair play in general , you must know by now football is still Provence no 1 sport but on the opposite side its rugby , i mean the south west of France but it still a big sport in our region, than there is a sport that you may not be to keen on its handball, OM were european champions the same years your Team won the CL, 1993: << a jamais les premiers>> Rugby in the south of France is very well followed and you could see some great team at stade mayol , Wilkinson nearly won the league with toulon last year so it seems your paths are crossing ! If you have the time go to watch toulon -toulouse, its always spicy. English and French rugby in club level are probably the best in europe so you could watch european games at mayol. 

Provence attack 5 pts

bonjour,

c'est bien dommage que je ne comprenne pas l'anglais.

bienvenue à l'OM  et en notre belle et antique Provence

allez l'om

parceque touloooooooooooon

et interdiction formelle de perdre contre le psg.!!!

 

and off course God save your gracious Queen

forum_expat 6 pts

 Provence attack Ouais, surtout qu'ils parlent de rugby en faite ;) mais bon, aussi de foot il est vrai :)

guffyboy74 5 pts

Joey

In my school I played both although later on i opted for football. But my youngest now 13 stared with football when he reached high school playing for a local team.. Then the SRU (Scottish rugby union) installed a school of excelece to give kids in a school without a rugby program the chance to learn and play. They have supplied 2 development officers and are coaching and training 4-6 times a week during school and after school. At first he was like any other kid who went along to give it a go a way of getting out of class, but he has fallen for the game, he now plays and trains with the local club as well. But the difference i see in him from watching him play footi to rugby is like chalk and cheese he is more controlled on an and off the pitch very sporting and his attitude to his academic school work has increased dramatically and we have put this all down to his involvement   with rugby hats of to those who had the foresight to install this facility at his school what a difference it made

awfadamson 5 pts

I enjoyed reading this very much but disagree slightly with you about the atmosphere. French rugby is tribal, I reccomend you visit Perpignan or Beziers, both bear pits!

SuperHans 5 pts

Like yourself I came to Rugby later in life, also having never played it at school.

 

There are a few things that could be learned, regarding the rule if you disrespect the ref then you lose 10 yards, didn't we have trial this rule in football for a while? If the authorities acted on these matters either with this or a booking, it would soon be stamped out. Why has nothing been done?

 

One of the things that turns me off football now is the amount of teams employing negative tactics as there is so much at stake. If football could learn from rugby then it would be when something isn't working they change it. Bonus points for more tries, when too much kicking was ruining the game, the rules at the breakdown are tweaked, this season the scrum has been changed to try and stop collapses, tv judges at the top level etc. Do you think football has a bit of a chip on it's shoulder when it comes to altering the beautiful game?

Frank Heaven 5 pts

As a rugby league fan Joey, you might like to know that Provence has a strong 'treiziste' tradition. Marseille had a great team back in the day, and the region's main power now is Avignon.

 

You might also like to know why league is not more popular in France. That can largely be explained by events that took place over 70 years ago, in the murky days of Vichy France, when the French rugby union authorities colluded with the Nazi-sponsored government to ban the sport - yes, ban rugby league - claiming it was a deviant, socialist version of rugby. In reality, they wanted it banned because it was starting to outstrip union in popularity.

 

The episode is described in an excellent book by Mark Rylance, called The Forbidden Game. There's also a summary of what happened in this BBC story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/2307043.stm

 

 

etienedtomat 5 pts

Bonjour monsieur Barton, ' A thugs game played by gentlemen' ! not too sure about that one, i live in a northern English town where rugby is the schools choice to try to give lads a helping hand into local proffesional sport.Many of these lads do not grow to be sports gentlemen. Unfortunatly young men prefer drinking cultures with  desires to follow the antics of bygone local heroes !!!   usually glamourised by the fighting abilities and bodily appearances of these men [ muscles on tattoo's etc]. I sometimes parallel Rugby players with the cultural mentality of some Gypsy clans.Sorry to be negative but just wondered if this happens with the youth in France.

 

ScottLongstaff 5 pts

Great piece Joey - everything that i've been thinking for a while. Its geograpical too. I grew up as a working class kid on a council estate in the west country, Bath actually. Everything is rugby here. I remember the tough underprivaleged mates of mine being full of it on the streets and with teachers in class but as soon as they crossed the white line of a rugby pitch they were full of respect and humility. Its odd, i don't know why but RU and probably RL just has a deep culture and history of respect. I love wbatching football but am just eternally dissapointed by the gamesmanship and well, lack of respect for officials. We were always taught as kids playing rugby that you're wasting energy by qustioning the ref - they aren't gonna change their minds! How many footy refs have said 'oh alright, i'll give a penalty seeing as younask so fiercely'. Its wrong to say that these poor elements of sport are ok because ther are just different - the principles remain identical. So much to talk about on this but fair play for making some great points. All the best in France.

Will_01 8 pts

I agree with you on your opinion about respect in the game,I think football can learn from rugby,maybe a reason for certain footballers not giving referees respect is to do with the monetary side of the game and big egos whereas a rugby player does not earn as much and values the sport more.

shanemul007 5 pts

Great artical Joey. I played rugby and football in my town, Limerick, which is a big rugby city. (Munster) . I noticed the divide in classes when growing up playing the two sports. I still play football on a sunday and i'm sick and tired of the abuse every two mins towards the referee from players and people on the sideline. I love the game but i wish there was the same level as respect shown  by rugby players when i was playing it. We would knock the crap out of each other for 80 mins then have beers afterwards.

paddy720 5 pts

Coming from a boy who played football all his childhood until he was 14 then changed to rugby union and has made it into a career I have enjoyed this!! Bon chance

Dictron 6 pts

I totally agree with you regarding the stereotypical socio-economical factors which play a huge part in which sports you follow. I personally loved football, but at 8 yrs old trying my hand at Sunday league youth football, being shouted at by opposition parents, f-ing and blinding, my dad dragged me kicking and screaming to the local rugby club. Respect, discipline and friendship were instantly apparent. Football does indeed need to learn to respect officials, the pace of football may cause more human error on the refs behalf, but goal line technology might install a 'fairness' in actual game changing calls giving the ref more chance to gain respect all over the pitch...Do Refs in football respect players in the way they speak?! Questionable...pose the sae question for rugby, undoubtably respect is reciprocal. I also agree that football is 'life and death' from week to week for fans. However, I'd think this is where rugby differs and possibly shows its power, rugby is 'life and death' for players on the pitch, players literally put their bodies on the line for each of their team members, ultimate team spirit. Can you say that about football players. I'm not even entering into the wage debate, but I can't see the team spirit to the same degree. Potentially it's down to the expectation levels of footballers, huge stars of our society, glamourised lifestyles and therefore greater pressure to perform individually and thus greater fan highs and lows through a season. Effort and commitment alone from rugby players as a team, buys the teams huge amounts of admiration and respect from supporters, both sets of supporters! Joey, I really enjoy reading your stuff, I have respect for your footballing ability and your intelligence in your blogs, at risk of stating the obvious, maybe you are best placed in terms of previous scrapes, to act differently on the pitch, show total commitment, die for the cause but show upmost respect to officials and other players showing sportsmanship, it is a culture that can be changed without losing the passion. Start making respectful behaviour a successful and positive thought process. Footballers are icons, but with the notoriety and wealthy they can also become role models in how they conduct themselves. Not everyone can play sport at the highest level, not everyone can earn millions, but everyone can learn respect, commitment and strength through discipline. Let me know what you think Sir Barton, @GiantDictron

AndreAngeChauchet 5 pts

mon cher Joe Barton,je suis un supporter de la première Heure de L'O.M ou tu-vas te régalé a jouer dans ce club mytique,détesté et Adulé!je te souhaites bienvenu et tout le bien dans ce club qui est toujours encré en moi!!! qu'en au rugby club Toulonnais que j'adores aussi ,j'ais passé mon enfance d'écolier dans cette belle ville,!!!j'allais a l'école DUTASTA qui se trouve juste dérrière le stade MAYOL,ou j'ais vu beaucoup de match aussi!!car le foot et le rugby sont pour moi deux ...Passions!!puis TOULON n'est pas loin de MARSEILLE,on a la même passion...Méridionnale!!!!Cher JOE sache que si ils y en a beaucoup qui te critiquent,sans te connaître ,nous les Marseillais...Nous t'aimons...LIVERPOOL-MARSEILLE ...MÊMe combat!!L'Amour du sport et de notre belle ville!!!A Bientôt au Vélodrome....JOE!!!

wellsey1401 5 pts

so if you was younger and was given a rugby ball do you think you could of had a top career in rugby union? i would say you have the passion to do it. 

Joey B 91 pts

 wellsey1401 How knows? I certainly wouldn't rule it out. My mindset says I would of been successful at whatever I applied myself to. If you want something enough, I believe you go out and achieve that in life. Its easy to say this and that is against me. If you want it enough, you find a way...

tannersarms 5 pts

Joey, I'm a toon fan living in the US. I tweeted this to you earlier, but I'm guessing you get many, many tweets. Not sure whether this would be best posted here, in culture, or in Politics, but seeing as this seems to be your most recent posting, we'll go with sports. I think you'd find the below story interesting because you like NFL, and like yourself Chris Kluwe is not afraid to say what he thinks, but also because just like in the Prem League, very few people are willing to speak out in favour of gay rights. I'm straight myself, but believe that everyone should be able to marry whomever they want, and when people are denied rights and government benefits (think immigration benefits, such as being able to sponsor your partner to move with you, or being allowed access to your partner in hospital because you're legally recognised as next of kin, rather than benefits in the hand-out sense). That this isn't the case in a country that prides itself on all men being created equal, with certain inalienable rights is shameful.

 

http://deadspin.com/5941348/they-wont-magically-turn-you-into-a-lustful-cockmonster-chris-kluwe-explains-gay-marriage-to-the-politician-who-is-offended-by-an-nfl-player-supporting-it

erfoyel 5 pts

Well, it seems, Joey, that you have taken the right path to learn a proper southy french language. Nothing better to get into a stadium, in Toulon or Marseilles, to feel the true grit of the tongue. It's just like the Pub method, without the music, actually... ;)

As a matter of fact, Wilko speaks a really good french by now. Hope you'll like the area as much as he does !

Welcome...

erfoyel 5 pts

 Joey B And don't hesitate to come to Aix-En-provence as well. It's not far from Marseilles, and there is a really Celtic atmosphere, especially by night. International attendance and English spoken more than any city in France ;) (and it's beautiful, too)

wee_leila 5 pts

 erfoyel  Joey B No don't. The nightlife might be good but the people are self-sufficient b******.

KingMong 5 pts

It's a fair statement. Like you Joey, I'm a northerner, and from a city where you played football or cricket. Rugby was not in the curriculum, probably as much due to our PE teachers being from a football background rather than being from a rugby one and thus struggling with the technicalities of the game. In terms of the cultural side of both games, football is perceived as the 'working class' game with rugby union being described as a 'middle class' sport. I do think that is reflected in terms of support as well. You'll have experienced many a hostile crowd and ground, whereas in Rugby Union that doesn't exist. It's a game built on foundations of respect. However, I don't think that is class or socially related. Rugby League is a working class game built on the same principles, with the same levels of respect shown to officials and players. The thing is, do we want to remove the tribal facet from the game of football? Probably not. It is being priced out of the everymans grasp as it is. I don't want my football sugar-coating further. Rugby is rugby, and football is football. Both sports can learn from each other, but they need keeping separate.

Jklington13 5 pts

@KingMong I disagree on the "rugby is a middle class" statement". Well, not everywhere anyways. In New Zealand for example. The working class is all about the rugby. Everybody picks up a ball run and side steps in the poorest streets and parks. But than again rugby to NZ is like football to England... You made the right choice Joey. I m from Montpellier, and always used to go to the velodrome to support Marseille since I was a kid. Its a city of character like no other in France. As a kid i felt that passion and i automatically supported them. For the good and the worst. Allez l'Om on craint Degun ! Forza Massilia

Ollyboggie 5 pts

I'd like to add joey that I wish you the best of luck in marseille. You have had a lot of unnecessary criticism at times, and people's bigoted views about you Need to change in my view. You come across as passionate, and all passionate players overstep the line at times. You are undoubtedly talented footballer and that should speak louder to pundits rather than your antics!

Joey B 91 pts

 Ollyboggie why, thank you Ollyboggie.

Nufcwayne 6 pts

Having Played and watched football all my life I totally agree that there are massive social and cultural differences between football and rugby. I too was introduced to union at an age where I was too old to play but I really enjoy watching it now even if I'm still ignorant to some of the rules and tactics. Being brought up in NE England football is a religion and to quite a few is all that matters. I think the schools should play a much more active role in redressing the balance and maybe the benefits that Rugby can bring (respect, no cheating etc) can rub off on our kids and maybe, just maybe, we will get some working class England Rugby stars of the future. Best of luck with OM and French life.

Joey B 91 pts

 Nufcwayne thanks and I am with you on the schools responsibility. The kids spend such a lot of time there its vital the exposure they get is of benefit. If not, their swimming against the tide. That is why good schooling is such an advantageous benefit to wealthy families. Although, not a guarantee by any standards, it can certainly give an advantage in life

Nufcwayne 6 pts

@Joey B Have you considered doing a blog on learning the French language. It seems that a lot of people have some worthwhile comments on the matter and selfishly, I've been learning French for a few years now without major success. Apologies if you've already covered this but I'm new on here.

wee_leila 5 pts

 ralphinfrance  From my experience of living abroad, I can tell you that learning a language depends on how much you are willing to do so. If you stick with English-speaking people while in France (which is what most British people seem to do anywhere they go, even in Spain etc.) then you are very unlikely to improve your language skills. I used to know this guy who lives in Aix-en-Provence, near Marseilles, and not only is his French perfect but he also picked up a Marseilles accent, and only sticks with French speaking people. 

On the topic above, yes, football is still a very much the "opium of the peoples" all over the world. My little brother who grew up in a middle-class environment was brought up to play football (goalie) by my father (who grew up in a working-class environment) but would much rather play american football etc. 

Nufcwayne 6 pts

@wee_leila @ralphinfrance Any advice on learning French in the uk. Any courses or material you would recommend?

ralphinfrance 5 pts

 Nufcwayne  I found night night school gave me a good grounding, however looking back on it, they do tend to teach you a form of French that isn't used much in every day life here. But at least there are other people to bounce of which you don't get with CD courses. If you can get a good broad vocabulary and learn how to pronounce words correctly, it's a good base for when you come over.

Bon Chance!

wee_leila 5 pts

 Nufcwayne  wee_leila  ralphinfrance I agree with Ralph, the way you learn French in the UK does not provide you with the right tools to understand the French we speak in France. It does, however, give you good basics of the language and teaches you how to speak French so that you can be understood by as many French speakers throughout the global (basically, you are taught standard French). I would advise you to find groups of French students in the UK and ask for conversation exchange. Nothing better than human interaction to learn languages to be honest.

Nufcwayne 6 pts

@wee_leila @ralphinfrance Thanks for the advice guys. I will take it on board and keep plugging away.

ralphinfrance 5 pts

 wee_leila Of course your'e right, the more you immerse yourself in the French way of life the better. I know many Brits, including my wife who do speak fluently, but also know so many who arrive thinking in a years they will be fluent just by living here.

I was merely warning JB that it isn't easy and I've known so many people, who after a few lessons on grammar, past tense, future tense, formal, informal, masculine, feminine etc etc, they find a lot is going in one ear and out the other and soon get dispondant.

 

As for JW1969 thinking what Paul Gascoigne spoke Italian, well, we will have to disagree on what speaking a language means. I guess your the kind of "fluent" speaker who comes out of a boulongerie after successfully ordering a baguette and congratulating yourself on how fluent you are in the language.

 

I'm sure Joey will be just fine with the amount and quality of lessons he will get, as well as having a work place where they speak the lingo.

Ollyboggie 5 pts

Think you've pretty much got it nailed Joseph. In terms of discipline, respect etc I believe football is somewhat of a lost cause. That cannot be changed over night, it is ingrained in the whole ethos of football. I myself played football until my early teens and when I moved to a public school took up rugby. The game is complicated but that should not act as a barrier to those who wish to participate. There are local clubs all over the place who are used to newcomers, and like yoive said there are exceptions to the class seperation and rugby can be a great release for those with hardship or worries, and due to the gladiatorial nature of the game the team cohesion within a rugby team is phenomenal (on and off the pitch) which from experience is less so In football.

Joey B 91 pts

 Ollyboggie I agree. I wish I was exposed a little bit more towards other sports in school. As it was it was only football for us. With the odd bit of cross-country, table tennis/pool at dinner times and badminton as a change from football, occasionally. We should allow kids to have more access to all manner of different sports. Who knows what untapped talents we might unearth?

Ollyboggie 5 pts

@Joey B Exactly, there are so many talents knocking about who stop playing sport or just stick to one sport when with hard work they could really achieve at other sports. Ut then I suppose it is unlikely there will be provisions at schools to cater for all sports. But these people should not be pigeon holed into just playing the main sports or just playing football or just sticking with rugby, their raw attributes should be nurtrured.

JW1969 6 pts

BTW, disagree with ralphinfrance about learning french, i only started learning it at 30 and speak it fluently, if you live there and immerse yourself in French life and people (and dont  live in an expat bubble) you will be fine, Jesus, even the cognitively challenged Paul Gascoigne learnt Italian ffs

JW1969 6 pts

socio-demographics are key to understanding the two cultures of football and rugby, up to a point. yes, historically football fans were predominantly working class - who lets face it, were in the main working hard, alienating jobs for bosses they hated, and had few outlets for frustration (alcohol and football, leaving aside the bedroom as the "working mans opera") so football became one of those few public spaces where the working class had a sense of ownership, belonging and yes, tribalism , which has positive and negative effects you outline, with the advent of the prawn sandwich contingent that has lessened but still exists

Joey B 91 pts

 JW1969 there were a lot of differences in terms of commercialism that I noticed at the Stade Mayol also last night, which may in turn answer your 'prawn sandwich' culture but at the moment I don't have enough experience to be able to write a blog about this topic.Let me take in a few more matches and ill be better positioned to make a comment. Thanks for leaving a comment JW1969

ralphinfrance 5 pts

Good luck with the learning French Joey, I've lived and worked for expats here in Carcassonne for 9 years and the one thing I can tell you about learning French is, unless your under the age of 16, you haven't got much chance of learning it fluently, unless you learnt it to a decent standard at school/ Uni.

 

My advice, start with the basics like numbers and alphabet and don't beat yourself up when it seems your'e getting nowhere. Getting by in everyday situations is easily manageable and will give you confidence.

 

All the best to you at L'OM 

Joey B 91 pts

 ralphinfrance thanks for the heads up. As long as i can communicate effectively, ill be happy.

Tazer666 5 pts

Well said, but rugby is only a grammar school sport prodminatly in England, so your theory on the upbringing reflecting on the way rugby people conduct them Selfs on the pitch is not because of a grammar school upbringing.

Jonny_jet 5 pts

Some good observations Joey. I too am from a similar NW England background but being in Wigan we played RL from age 6. However, I only started playing RU at University. I do believe that the way in which any sportsperson interfaces with their referee & associated umpires is a function of their up bringing in the sport. Conditioning begins at an early age and kids will mimic their heroes. Tennis divas, along with footballers, can be overboard in their dealings with the officials, boxers, rugby thugs, martial artists, cage type fighters and crown green bowlers tend to be much more respecting of the officials and kids growing up in the sport are conditioned that this respect is the way to play. Hope all goes well for you in France.

Joey B 91 pts

 Jonny_jet I do agree with you on the referring aspect and as pro's we are responsible for having that negative impact on the sport. I do, however believe that the rules have to be tightened up at the top level with more stringent fines/bans/punishments dished out for running foul of such rules, then and only then do I believe football can start to tackle the issue. Thanks for the good wishes in France, much appreciated Jonny

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